Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

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Jammy Dodger
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Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by Jammy Dodger »

Submission Type: Protest (Written on behalf of Carly Master By Jammin Dovetails)

1.Your registered Boat Name: Carly Master

2.Race Day: 1

3.Group (colour): Green

4.Race (number): 1

5.Time (in Replay): 24.40

6.Rule(s) applicable: 22.2

7.Boat(s) involved: Carly Master and Batboat

8.Description: Batboat is on or over the port layline and is fetching the mark. Carly is approaching Batboat and the Port layline. Both boats are a good distance from the mark. Batboat is slightly ahead and tries to pass Carlys bow but Carly has to bear away to avoid contact with Batboats stern. Nadeo gives a correct pen 10 to Batboat. Carly soon after tacks for the mark however boat boat deliberately turns towards carly to do his 360 and and does not keep clear as described in rrs 22.2. Therefore Carly protests as Batboat breaks 2 rrs and only does 1 360 for the pen 10.

9.Print Screen attached (required for a manual protest): y

10.Replay attached (required): y
Attachments
Morgenstemning-MLS(03'02''13).Replay.Gbx
(3.34 MiB) Downloaded 316 times
Green RD 2 R 1 Carly Master v Batboat.jpg
Green RD 2 R 1 Carly Master v Batboat.jpg (442.62 KiB) Viewed 6315 times
Last edited by Jammy Dodger on Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Batboat
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Re: Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by Batboat »

Firstly I must express that we should take it easy when referring to rule 2. This situation is definitely not a situation which is within the scope of rule 2 - on the contrary.

When I have received a penalty, all boats, including Carly and me are still subjects to RSS. The only exception is rule 22.2. Rule 22.2 express that I must keep clear of other boats. When the incident happens I have tacked so I am on starboard tack and therefore Carly must keep clear as port side boat according to rule 10.

It is probably also true that I am in the process of taking my penalty - and the situation happens because both boats tack almost at the same time - and I had no intention of being in the way of Carly, but in the sense of RSS rules I keep clear and rule 10 still applies even if I have a penalty - which means that Carly should stay clear of me.

Therefore this protest should be rejected.
Jammy Dodger
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Re: Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by Jammy Dodger »

Ok Batboat, thankyou for your reply.

Read the protest again,, or let me clear things up for you as you are clearly feeling guilty for something... This protest does not mention rule 2. The protest merely states that you have committed 2 offenses of the R.R.S. and yet have only done 1 360. In our view you break 10 and 22.2.

We do however believe that you deliberately reacted (in the heat of the moment) to receiving the pen by affecting Carlys race in the negative way that you did. It is up to the P.C. if your reaction is more than what we have stated, through viewing replays and assessing the full situation. E.g. positioning on laylines, speed of turn, direction of turn etc etc.

P.S. there is no rule that we are aware of that states that a boat undertaking a penalty 360 has R.o.w over another boat. That is ultimately what rrs 22.2 is for which as you describe, states the opposite. So, if you are admitting to breaking a rule for which you have not done a pen for in this reply, we respectfully suggest you should retire.

GW
Batboat
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Re: Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by Batboat »

Sorry you are correct concerning rule 2, I have read it again.

I already have explained that out tacks happens simultaneously and I had no intention to cross Carly - so as I have already said we tack at the same time - therefore it is not deliberate. When our boats meet again I am on starboard tack. And btw I had to tack again because another boat (Kvien Mary) is on starboard.

It is up to PC to view this, but I believe that I keep clear and Carly under all circumstances would have had to go under or tack with me.
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PC Admin
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Re: Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by PC Admin »

Facts:
Batboat on port tack with a pending penalty having passed Carly Master on starboard, approaching Kvien Mary on starboard.
It is not possible for Batboat to spin clockwise, but it is possible to spin counter clockwise between Kvien Mary and Carly Master.
While Batboat taking his penalty turn, Carly Master is tacking to port, creating a collision course.
Batboat slows his turn, while Carly Master is bearing away to pass behind him.
Batboat completes his one-turn penalty.

Conclusion:
Batboat was well clear of other boats before starting his penalty turn.
While Batboat was subject to rule 22.2 (keep clear while taking a penalty), Carly Master created a collision course by changing course.
Carly Master gave room for Batboat to keep clear, as required by rule 16.1.
Carly Master interfered with a boat taking a penalty, but did not break rule 24.2 (interfering) because he was sailing his proper course.
Batboat complied with rule 44.2, hence took a valid penalty.
No rules broken.
+1 point to be added to Carly Master's score, according to the scoring section of the MLS Sailing Instructions.

MLS Protest Committee
Jammy Dodger
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Re: Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by Jammy Dodger »

A respectful reply on behalf of Carly...

3 things dont make sense from the PC facts and conclusion according to Carlys replay.

No1:
"It is not possible for Batboat to spin clockwise,"
In our view Batboat is clear ahead of Kvien and only needs to wait a little to cross Kviens bow and to turn clockwise. The safer, keeping clear of all others option.

No2:
"While Batboat taking his penalty turn, Carly Master is tacking to port, creating a collision course."
"Carly Master created a collision course by changing course."
It is clear and obvious from Carlys replay that Carly is almost half way through his tack to port before Batboat luffs to take his 360. Therefore Batboat creates the collision course, not Carly.

No3:
"Carly Master interfered with a boat taking a penalty, but did not break rule 24.2 (interfering) because he was sailing his proper course."
Again see point No2. The PC states Carly Interferes Batboats pen then says he doesn't break rrs24.2 interfering?? The facts from Carlys replay show that his tack to the mark comes well before Batboats hasty turn to take his 360. All the while, Batboat is fully aware he is over the lay-line (see the surrounding boats approach to the mark) he knows Carly will be tacking in that direction. Hence we think Batboat is not keeping clear. Carly has to make an excessive manoeuvre to avoid.

As the only one in my team able to grasp english well enough and able to write the protests and explanations on the forum for my team. I will endeavour to be more specific, succinct and clear in my descriptions.

Whereas we disagree in this case, can I take this opportunity to thank the PC for its hard work and dedication to making this a fair and fun regatta.

Kindest regards

Jammin Dovetails
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euphoria
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Re: Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by euphoria »

Jammy Dodger wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:12 pm"It is not possible for Batboat to spin clockwise,"
In our view Batboat is clear ahead of Kvien and only needs to wait a little to cross Kviens bow and to turn clockwise. The safer, keeping clear of all others option.
At the moment he started spinning counter clockwise, it was not possible to spin clockwise. At that moment, Kvienmary was blocking the other option. Maybe he could have crossed, but then after crossing, there could have been other boats in the way (Alf). Anyway, this is not important for the ruling, as long as it was space to windward at that time.
"While Batboat taking his penalty turn, Carly Master is tacking to port, creating a collision course."
"Carly Master created a collision course by changing course."
It is clear and obvious from Carlys replay that Carly is almost half way through his tack to port before Batboat luffs to take his 360. Therefore Batboat creates the collision course, not Carly.
Both boats contributed to creating a collision course. There is no collision course until after the boats are parallell. A boat doesn't have to anticipate that another boat will continue to turn, even if she has started luffing in order to tack. When applying the rules, you can freeze the direction of the boat in question (this is an important pricinple most sailors are not aware of). Until there is a collision course, Batboat doesn't need any room from Carly to keep clear. After the collision course is established, Carly turns towards Batboat, which means Carly has to give room under rule 16.1.
"Carly Master interfered with a boat taking a penalty, but did not break rule 24.2 (interfering) because he was sailing his proper course."
Again see point No2. The PC states Carly Interferes Batboats pen then says he doesn't break rrs24.2 interfering??
Yes, this is the statement, because it is what happened. While Batboat was taking his penalty, Carly was turning towards him, which means Carly was interfering. Carly is allowed to interfere if he is sailing his proper course, which he did. That's what rule 24.2 says.
The facts from Carlys replay show that his tack to the mark comes well before Batboats hasty turn to take his 360. All the while, Batboat is fully aware he is over the lay-line (see the surrounding boats approach to the mark) he knows Carly will be tacking in that direction.
This is already answered above with regards to collision course and anticipation. Even though it's probable that there will be a collision course in the near future and that a boat will tack on a layline, the other boat doesn't have to anticipate it. She has to deal with it when it happens.
Hence we think Batboat is not keeping clear. Carly has to make an excessive manoeuvre to avoid.
You are right that Batboat was not keeping clear, but he was exonerated under rule 16.1.

You are of course free to ask question, but we encourage you to limit it to cases where it is obvious that the PC has made a mistake. This commitment already takes a lot of time, and teaching rules is not a part of our tasks. Btw, when we process the cases, there are sometimes doubts and different opinions within the committee, which happened in this case (and for the Alf-case). For situations with doubts, usually the benefit of the doubt is given to the accused.

For this particular case, I would like to highlight that Batboat did not get an advantage from taking the penalty turn where he did, rather the opposite, as he had to slow down his turn to avoid Carly. And Carly did not get a disadvantage from avoiding Batboat, as he had to bear away to pass behind Kvien Mary anyway. This doesn't affect the ruling, but maybe it indicates that the case isn't worth "fighting for".

Regards Harald,
Protest Committee Chairman
Jammy Dodger
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Re: Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by Jammy Dodger »

Hi Harald

Many thanks for your full and detailed explanation.

It is appreciated and encouraging that you share your knowledge and foresight despite rightly declaring the PC is not an educational tool. Past its function as a judgement process and the obvious lessons we learn from said judgements.

At a time convenient to you... I would be keen to discuss your comment 'When applying the rules, you can freeze the direction of the boat in question' further and at greater lengths as I am not sure of the context or meaning of this 'tool'.

Your right in that I should not have encouraged Carly to protest as my viewpoint is clearly subjective from my loyalty to the team. Especially as the outcome was not that drastically bad.

Best wishes

Benjamin
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euphoria
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Re: Season 12, Race Day 2, Group Green, Race 1, Protest

Post by euphoria »

Jammy Dodger wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:42 pm I would be keen to discuss your comment 'When applying the rules, you can freeze the direction of the boat in question' further and at greater lengths as I am not sure of the context or meaning of this 'tool'.
With "freeze the direction of the boat in question" I mean that the keep clear boat can assume that the right of way boat will hold her course at any time during a maneuver, and continue straight, even if she is currently is in the process of changing course. See the screenshot below from the moment Batboat passed head to wind, as an example:

2020-11-04 12_19_05-Clipboard.png
2020-11-04 12_19_05-Clipboard.png (393.81 KiB) Viewed 6165 times

In this position, Carlo is currently right of way boat and Batboat shall keep clear under rule 22.2. Batboat can assume Carlo will follow the red arrow forward after this moment. And as you see from the circular arrow, Batboat would have had no problem spinning under Carlo if he continued straight. Any change of course from Carlo towards Batboat from this moment, puts an obligation on Carlo under rule 16.1.

Of course, this snapshot method changes constantly, so when the situation has developed, Batboat also has to change the plans. As shown on the snapshot 2 seconds later, between the first and second picture things have changed. Now Batboat cannot continue turning, but delays turning and pass to port of Carlo instead of to starboard of him.

2020-11-04 12_30_39-VskAC32.png
2020-11-04 12_30_39-VskAC32.png (162.53 KiB) Viewed 6165 times

As you understand, this case is pretty marginal, and had Batboat turned a little later, then the outcome would have been the opposite.

Harald
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