Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

vonreuffen
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:11 pm

Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by vonreuffen »

Submission Type: Protest

1. Your registered Boat Name: von Reuffen POL-VSC
2. Race Day: Final
3. Group: red
4. Race: 3
5. Time in Replay: 11:30
6. Rule applicabl: 10 (mast hit)
7. Skipper involved: Thor (Italian Wolves)
8. Description
A course to the wind, close to the 1st mark. vonReuffen is starboard, on the left Thor approaches and does a tack near vR yacht. There is a mast hit. 40 sec. later Thor receives the penalty from another boat. Thor is doing one 360 turn and continues race.
9. Print Screen attached: Y
10. Replay attached: Y
11. Video link:
Attachments
Dionne 3(03'01''39) Thor.Replay.Gbx
(3.63 MiB) Downloaded 144 times
P Thor vonReuffen.bmp
P Thor vonReuffen.bmp (4.69 MiB) Viewed 3027 times
steviekouris
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:58 am

Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by steviekouris »

Facts:
After a situation with Thor, Von Reuffen hailed protest ("P Thor") at least 40 seconds later.

Conclusion:
The hail was not made at the first reasonable opportunity, see rule 61.1(a).

Decison:
Protest dismissed.
+1 points to Von Reuffen under MLS rule 3.3.4.

The protest committee
vonreuffen
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Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by vonreuffen »

Sorry, I don't understand this decision.
You can clearly see in my screenshot that I called him to execute the penalty. I gave him a moment and when I found Thor would not do 360 - when I protested.
I was very fair and I was punished for it. This is nonsense!
Rafał
BogDan
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Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by BogDan »

So protest valid or not valid. Giving +1 point committee agried that valid. Not valid protest cannot be punished...
BogDan
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euphoria
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Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by euphoria »

Rafal, in the RRS a hail for protest is related to the incident where rules allegedly were broken, not the lack of penalty turn. It's just the procedural way it works. The PC tried to argument internally to make the hail valid, but concluded to follow the procedure and ignore the chat between the incident and the hail for protest.

Similar, Duffy submitted his cancellation explanation for the situation between him and Pawel 4 minutes after the protest time limit. Duffy was DSQ and no action on Pawel by following the procedure. If submission was made 4 minutes earlier, Duffy would have been clear and Pawel would have been DSQ.

It's tough, but it's the way it has to work.

Boguslaw, the PC did not want to give +1 points but it had to. See MLS rule 3.3.4: "If a boat hailing "P Boat Name", does not submit a protest, if the protest is not valid, or if the protest is not upheld, 1 point will be added to her score."

Harald
BogDan
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Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by BogDan »

I can't imagine how the race committee could combine RRS 61.1 with 3.3.4 MLS race rules in this way.
1. The interpretation of 61.1 for on-line conditions and this specific situation is.. strange
2. MLS 3.3.4 meaning of "valid " in my thinking is rather - properly validated (by writing protest on forum in time)
3. Combining this two to punish von Reuffen is.. strange.

Please tell me that I am wrong.

Regards
BogDan
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euphoria
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Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by euphoria »

1. The PC will take one more round to consider if the hail was made at the first reasonable opportunity.
2. Valid means that all points in 61 are met. The protest hail is necessary to make a protest valid. This is clear.
3. If hail is too late (1), then protest is invalid (2). If invalid, then +1 point. This is clear.

As said in (1), we will come back after evaluating this point one more time.

Harald
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euphoria
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Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by euphoria »

According to the judges manual, when a protest appears to be valid, we shall give the protesting boat the opportunity to give evidence on the failed validity requirements. This has been given now. Detailed facts has been collected from the video operator and all judges in MLS has given their opinions.

Facts:
00 seconds: Mast hit between Thor and Von Reuffen
13 seconds: Bogdan (who is not part of this hearing) wrote: "Mast"
17 seconds: Von Reuffen wrote: "Thor, mast - do 360"
41 seconds: Von Reuffen wrote: "P Thor"

All members of the protest committee agrees that the protest hail "P Thor" was not given at the first reasonable opportunity, which is the validity requirement in rule 61.1(a). Even the mast hail after 17 seconds is quite late. And the gap between the two lines are 24 seconds. Therefore the protest remain invalid.

We don't understand what is more "fair" with the way your communication went. Is it more fair to write about mast instead of writing protest? It's very easy to write "P boatname" after an incident, please do that if you want a boat to do a penalty turn, instead of blaming the committee when you don't follow the simple procedure. The protest committee has to follow the procedure of the RRS, otherwise it would lose its integrity.

The protest committee
BogDan
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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:26 pm

Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by BogDan »

I am sure that Authors of MLS rules did not want to punish "+1p" the sailor which have written P Boatname to late. The idea "+1 p" was not to give PC to much work. Now PC is telling that is so easy to write "P"..
Even law and rules You can read with Literal Compehension or with Interpretive Compehension.
Such as Literal Compehension readings is killing MLS - very well organizated and realisated competition.

Regards
BogDan
(who is not part of this hearing)
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euphoria
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Re: Season 14, Race Final Day 5, Group red, Race 3, manual protest vs Thor

Post by euphoria »

You should not be too sure about RC's idea for the +1... The RC have wanted to use +1 points much more than the PC (for example for cases where there were hailed P in addition to a cancellation, and there was only a cancellation request). Please note that the PC have to great extents softened the formality-processing since I joined it. In the past you would for example be DSQ if you wrote the wrong replay time with your cancel explanation... The PC has also made other proposals to make things smoother for the sailors which has not been included.

The interpretation of the MLS rule 3.3.4 (If a boat hailing "P Boat Name", does not submit a protest, if the protest is not valid, or if the protest is not upheld, 1 point will be added to her score) is quite clear:
  1. You get +1 if you don't submit a protest. This gives no work at all to the PC. Still the RC has decided +1...
  2. You get +1 if the protest is invalid because you submit it after the time limit. This gives a minimum of work for the PC, which you suggested the validity check was for.
  3. You get +1 if the protest is invalid because you hail protest too late. This gives a little more work for the PC. It's indeed hard to find other validity cases that takes more time.
  4. You get +1 if the protest is not upheld. This gives normal amount of work for the PC.
I personally agree with you that +1 rule can be changed. Please make proposals to the RC for new wording of the rule. Meanwhile, it's obvious that the PC can't choose to not follow the MLS rules if it doesn't agree with clearly written instructions.

I wish you nice holidays!

Harald
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