MLS 12 Day 3 GREEN server Race 7 Duffy vs. Jonte 16.1.

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duffy
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MLS 12 Day 3 GREEN server Race 7 Duffy vs. Jonte 16.1.

Post by duffy »

Submission Type: C

1.Your registered Boat Name:Duffy

2.Race Day: 3

3.Group (colour): GREEN

4.Race (number):1 (7)

5.Time (in Replay):00:34

6.Rule(s) applicable:16.1. and 11

7.Boat(s) involved:Duffy and Jonte

8.Description: Duffy was on port tack on the beam. Jonte was windward to Duffy on starboard beam reach and bore away, gybed to port and luffed up - still windward to Duffy: As Jonte continued to luff up Jonte hit Duffy. Nadeo gave pen 16.1. to Duffy, but I did not alter my course except from minor adjustments. On the contrary, Jonte altered her course casing the hit and broke rule 11 by gybing and luffing too hard and too close to Duffy.

9.Print Screen attached (required for a manual protest):n

10.Replay attached (required):y - MLS 12-7 I Maschi.Replayh.Gbx
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MLS 12-7 I Maschi.Replay.Gbx
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PC Admin
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Re: MLS 12 Day 3 GREEN server Race 7 Duffy vs. Jonte 16.1.

Post by PC Admin »

Facts:
Jonte overlapped to windward of Duffy on port.
Both passing behind Saf on starboard, and pointing to pass behind Winslow also on starboard.
Duffy makes a small luff.
Jonte at the same time makes a hard luff, and tacks to leeward of Winslow.
While luffing, Jonte's stern hits Duffy midship.
Duffy got a penalty from the VSK umpire under rule 16.1 which he cancelled.

Conclusion:
Duffy had to give room to Jonte to pass behind Saf and Winslow, which he did. Duffy had to give room to Jonte when he changed course, which he did. Jonte had to keep clear of Duffy, which he did not. Jonte broke rule 11 and shall be scored DSQ in the race.

MLS Protest Committee
Jonte
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Re: MLS 12 Day 3 GREEN server Race 7 Duffy vs. Jonte 16.1.

Post by Jonte »

Dear sirs,
Last week I got two dsq's in the same race, one because of a pen cancel that I asked and one because of a pen explanation that Duffy asked....
In the second one I was disqualified by the PC for breaking a rule and now the SI about the Yellow cards is in effect and I cannot participate in the next racing day.
I will not discuss about the decision of the PC but of this unfair SI.. I think that I got penalized for the breach of the rule and I don't think there is any reason not to let me take part in the next day.
I would like to ask you to reconsider that SI as it is unfair....
Thank you very much


PS... Feel free to explain how you think I would act when the starboard boats come at high speed and Duffy does not give me room to make a safe stay turn?

He is punished 16.1 for not doing so, and for breaking rules 19, 20 and 2.

I do not understand how you can dsq for this !!!!! ????
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euphoria
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Re: MLS 12 Day 3 GREEN server Race 7 Duffy vs. Jonte 16.1.

Post by euphoria »

Hi Johan,

The first part should be addressed to the Race Committee, as they are responsible for the SI.
Jonte wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:54 am Feel free to explain how you think I would act when the starboard boats come at high speed and Duffy does not give me room to make a safe stay turn?
This is already indicated in the decision. Duffy gave you room to pass behind Saf and Winslow (under rule 19). This means you should have acted this way, passing behind Winslow.

Alternatively if you wanted to tack under Winslow, you should have passed closer behind Saf, which would have given you more room between you and Duffy.

Alternatively if you wanted to tack under Winslow, you could have turned slower, not over rotating and swinging your stern into Duffy. Your tack ended 1 boat length to leeward of Winslow, so there was space for a more smooth turn.

There were also two other starboard boats, BatBoat and steviekouris, which both you and Duffy were initially going to pass in front of, so you had to give Duffy room for this (also under rule 19). There would have been plenty of space for both of you there, if steviekouris did not luff.

When steviekouris luffs, Duffy also luffs a little, probably because he had to change course in order to keep clear of steviekouris who suddenly was pointing at him. This happened before Jonte had started to luff hard in order to tack, and Jonte had still room to keep clear to windward of Duffy.

When steviekouris luffed, he had to give both Jonte and Duffy room to keep clear. If Jonte had continued straight in order to pass behind Winslow, steviekouris would have had no problem giving the necessary room.
He is punished 16.1 for not doing so
No, you know it doesn't work like that. The fact that VSK gives a penalty doesn't mean than anyone is punished. The only thing you can say for sure from the 16.1 VSK gave on the water, was the fact that there was contact between the boats. And as soon as Duffy cancels that penalty, you know that he is protesting you for this contact. Even without the small luff from Duffy, Jonte would not have kept clear of him when tacking to windward, as even without contact, Jonte would have been too close under rule 11 (which doesn't require contact according to the definition of keeping clear).
...and for breaking rules 19, 20 and 2.
Duffy did not break rule 19, he complied with rule 19. Rule 19 doens't give Jonte any room to tack under a starboard boat. Rule 20 did not apply between the two of you in this situation because you were not close hauled, Duffy was not to windward of you, and you had not started. And Duffy did definitively not break rule 2!

Overall, it was a very difficult situation for you to deal with, but nobody but yourself put you in this situation. You decided to gybe to port to windward of Duffy when he was between 4 starboard boats. That is a high risk decision. When the protest committee later shall evaluate the situation, everything becomes clear since we can go through the situation step by step. We can however not give you any slack, as the situation was created by yourself.

Regards Harald,
Protest Committee chairman
Jonte
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Re: MLS 12 Day 3 GREEN server Race 7 Duffy vs. Jonte 16.1.

Post by Jonte »

You claim that I will sail closer to SAF in this situation, as you can see I will hit his rig if i do so ...

It is clear from the replay.

We sail virtually but that does not mean that we should sail unsportsmanlike for it.?!

Duffy gets a penalty 16.1 and in the situation he drives on StevieKouris after when he can not get a double penalty.

Should anyone sail like that in reality? Then he should splits two boats.

I get dsq and Duffy goes free in this situation?

Is it reasonable?
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euphoria
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Re: MLS 12 Day 3 GREEN server Race 7 Duffy vs. Jonte 16.1.

Post by euphoria »

Passing closer to the stern of Saf was one of two options available if you wanted to tack under Winslow. You asked us for ideas...
The main exit was to pass behind Winslow, as indicated in the original decision.
If you were worried about the rig of Saf, you should not have gybed from starboard to port (giving up right of way) just to windward of Duffy and just to leeward to Saf.

Rule 16.1 applies on steviekouris, and if Duffy would have broken rule 10, he could have been exonerated under rule 16.1/21(a). Duffy was initially not able to bear away of steviekouris because of BatBoat to leeweard of him. Then BaBoat beared away, and Duffy changed course to avoid steviekouris. Due to the complex situaton, with many boats involved, Duffy would need more time to process all the information, which means the reaction time becomes longer. Duffy had to consider course changes from Jonte, steviekouris and BatBoat in a short period of time, in addition to cancelling a penalty, all from a situation that was not created by himself. These actions changed the best way out for Duffy from passing above, to not passing at all, to passing below steviekouris. Any benefit of the doubt would then go with him. In the end, there was no contact and there was no protest on Duffy from steviekouris, so this is not to be considered by the PC.

The protest committee deals with the cases that come in, regardless of what you think happens on real water. For the record, on real water in ACC60, no boats would gybe on port to windward of a boat facing 4 starboard boats.

The protest committee has replied to your original request for an another look at the case, which is fair. You should be happy that we give one detailed explanation. This is not a rules seminar. If you still disagree with the decision, fair enough, but deal with it. It happens to all of us... Still after receiving this, you continue to whine, contacting different protest committee members on e-mail, facebook messenger and in the forum. That is not appropriate behavior!

Harald
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