Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

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laj2
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Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by laj2 »

Submission Type: R

1.Your registered Boat Name: Balder

2.Race Day: 1

3.Group: Green

4.Race (number):3

5.Time (in Replay): 31:07

6.Rule(s) applicable: 62.1 (a)

7.Skipper(s) involved: Balder and host (as host not as skipper)

8.Description: Balder was disconnected from the server 15 seconds before the finish line. His position at the time was 5th, one boat length ahead of Legsy, both on port layline with no other option than sailing straight to the finish line. Without the presence of Balder, Legsy scored 5th, which documents Balders legitimate finishing position.

During the 3 races on the green server, 4 different boats got disconnected. This indicates that host had connection problems that night. This was of course not under control of the host and was striking randomly, but still a good connection between the host and the other boats is a part of the race management, which the host is on duty for. At least it would not be fair to let Balder suffer from this, who from no fault of his own was disconnected. Balder has a steady 500mb fiber connection, and has not suffered from disconnection from any race the last 3 months. Balder ask for redress equaling scoring 5 points for race 3 instead of 16.


9.Print Screen attached (required for a valid PROTEST): Not relevant for a redress request

10.Replay attached (optional): Look at attachment
Attachments
Son of a Preacher Man-MLS(03'01''84).Replay.Gbx
(2.99 MiB) Downloaded 395 times
Wetstuff
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Re: Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by Wetstuff »

Question: how can you assess that Balder's disco was host's fault and not his own or Ubisoft? If I recall Blue has a 100mbps upload
Everyone has had disconnection at some point when he thought he had the best connection & PC and always we "suck it up"

So did Balder suffer disconnections prior to the last 3 months?
Magnar no offence, just bad luck
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Balder
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Re: Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by Balder »

No problems Alex, just fine to have a discussion.

I can tell the facts about the incident.
I'm sailing VSK on my desktop PC, wired connection. Uses extra laptop for Discord team chat, WIFI. When I was disconnected from MLS race 3, the laptop Discord communication with teammates was normal all the time.
For the past 6 months I have not experienced any disconnection, not a single time. My internet is 500 / 500Mgps up / down load, solid as a rock.

You ask why it's reasonable to believe that the hosts connection was the problem.
As highlighted in the request for redress, it's because the host had much more disconnected boats from his server this evening than what he normally has. My connection is described above. The connection to Ubisoft is not relevant, as during a race it's only a matter of the connection between the host and the clients.

Very annoying that disconnection, power outages, earthquakes or volcanic eruptions should affect MLS results. This does not reflect the MLS skipper's skills at all.

Run the discussion, how to improve SI rules to avoid that "just bad luck" interfere on scores. Redress if disconnect after start, 50% sailed or disconnect at last leg etc?
Other main VSK Championships has given redress for disconnections. This has never been a problem for the other participants, everybody believes it's fair. It's easy for a PC to make sure that the redress given is not unreasonable. The closer to the finish line, the easier it is to evaluate the proper redress. And of course, the benefit of the doubt shall not be given to the boat receiving redress.

What is the limit...?
How many boats shall be disconnected from the race server before redress is given? Is it a no if 2 or more boats remains on the server?
How many centimetres from the finish line?
Even for a restrictive policy for redress, these questions must matter.

My disconnect was 15 sec before finish line.
My replay even shows that I did cross the finish line, which means my computer had not yet received confirmation that the connection to the host was lost.

Regards Magnar, Balder NOR Team
Legsy
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Re: Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by Legsy »

I understand Magners problem and was very unlucky.

But if PC rule this type of case in favour of any boat discon then it will leave the door wide open for skippers to deliberately discon if it suits them?
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Goffe
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Re: Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by Goffe »

I am very sorry for you Magnar.

I believe these things happened to us all, one or more times.
I am not a technical expert, but from what I understand, it's more complex than just the host's and sailors' equipment and internet capacity.
Nadeo/Ubisoft may seem inactive, but some activities are till going on in the "background". Among other things, they check our accounts for validation now and then.
I also believe that other activities on the whole internet can affect the game. Any critical node may have technical problems or be completely down. A redirection of traffic can lead to performance problems and disruptions.
During the "Blues League" period we had serious interruptions on two different occasions on multiple servers. Despite changing hosts, things didn't get much better. In both cases,the day after the races, we found out that Microsoft had distributed major updates to large parts of the world. We don't know, but it is not unlikely that this caused interference in parts of the www.

Anyway...Keep fighting Magnar!

/Goffe
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euphoria
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Re: Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by euphoria »

Legsy wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:52 pmIf PC rule this type of case in favour of any boat discon then it will leave the door wide open for skippers to deliberately discon if it suits them?
Hi Andy, these are important concerns. But the PC should not rule a discon in favour of the boat in question, that's the point:
  • If a boat disconnects just before the finish line, and there is absolutely no doubt that this boat would have finished in a certain position, this boat will get that position. That's not in favour, it's the fair score.
  • If a boat disconnects in the later stages of a race and there is doubt of the expected finish position, the boat will get the worst reasonable possible finishing position. Also not in favour, just opposite of the benefit of the doubt (= a little worse than expected score).
These considerations are similar to what real water protest committees have to perform, for example if a boat is damanged during a race, and not able to either finish the race or start in the following races.

Without receiving any benefit from a discon, boats will not deliberately disconnect. But if people fear that participants will deliberatly disconnect, one could also suspect hosts for deliberatly dropping the connection to specific boats, which is technically possible. I do of course not believe that any of these things is happening, but it illustrates that the burden of a discon not necessarily should hang on the the disconnected boat. How could we tell that a majority of disconnections is due to problems on the client end and not on the hosting end? And without knowing that a discon is due to any fault of the boat, why not do something about it, when it's possible to give a fair redress based on the conditions of the situation? As Magnar said, this has been done for years at other VSK events without any problems.

Best regards,
Harald, NOR Team
Legsy
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Re: Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by Legsy »

Hi Harald,

You raise some reasonable points. However this would require an MLS Rule change which would need to be discussed and finally decided by the RC. Unless I am mistaken (Goffe will correct me) has never happened during a currently running season of MLS.

I am not against it being discussed after the season has been concluded.

Best regards

Andy
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euphoria
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Re: Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by euphoria »

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your understanding and consideration. At least the third paragraph of the SI states that the S.I. and Rules can be changed at any time during the event, so at least it's an opening for it. But it's your event, you decide the rules and when to make changes. And all participants have accepted the rules as they are. No problem at all.

NOR Team is aware of the section regarding redress in the Rules, which are VSK related, but no MLS rule says that the normal conditions for redress under the racing rules of sailing do not apply. Also, in MLS season 10, redress was given for situations that are not covered under the listings in the MLS rules.

As highligted in the original post in this topic by laj2, the claim is that the host (who is on duty for the race committee) did not have a proper connection on the first race night. The "evidence" is the 4 different boats that dropped from his races, which is much more than what he usually has. I'm sure Johan can testify to this. Magnars replay does also prove that his VSK did not crash, and that the discon was due to a connection problem between him and the host.

It's good that the you, Andy and Goffe, participates in this discussion, as the case can in fact be solved directly by the RC :idea::
I guess you have seen Magnars replay, which actually shows that he finished? This replay can be used to state his finishing time, since it's missing in the host replay file. The host replay file is only the primary source for information (as written in the MLS rules), and without a proper path of Magnars boat there (missing 15 seconds), you can use his replay as secondary information. The MLS SI and Rules does not mention how to score the boats or how to deal with disconnected boats. If the Race Committee agrees that Balder has finished (which his replay proves), you can at any time correct the finishing order of the race according to rule 90.3(c).

PS! This is only possible for a disconnection just before the finishing line, as the race will end for the client if the connection to the host is missing for a longer period of time.

Best regards,
Harald
venhobel
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Re: Season 11, Race Day 1, Group Green, Race 3, Redress Request on behalf of Balder

Post by venhobel »


Decision:

> No redress given.
> No further actions.

MLS PC

Add from RC:

According to MLS Rules, redress cannot be given due to disconnection. This and some other issues that might lead to amendments of the Rules will be discussed after this Season.

MLS RC
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